![](http://www.moonpod.com/graphic/Menus/Title_TL.gif.pagespeed.ce.9SECnMGWBA.gif) |
Poll Result |
![](http://www.moonpod.com/graphic/Menus/Title_TR.gif.pagespeed.ce.i8axqpn9hk.gif) |
|
How many Ds do you want? |
|
|
2 is enough |
|
74% |
[ 23 ] |
Gimme 3 or nothing! |
|
25% |
[ 8 ] |
|
|
|
Total Votes : 31 |
|
![](http://www.moonpod.com/graphic/Menus/BL.gif.pagespeed.ce.u7PI0F-sZE.gif) |
![](http://www.moonpod.com/graphic/Menus/spacer.gif.pagespeed.ce.9_JoBd4aHy.gif) |
![](http://www.moonpod.com/graphic/Menus/BR.gif.pagespeed.ce.MvIiwkp6Eb.gif) |
|
![](/graphic/Menus/spacer.gif.pagespeed.ce.9_JoBd4aHy.gif) |
Author |
|
![](http://www.moonpod.com/graphic/Menus/spacer.gif.pagespeed.ce.9_JoBd4aHy.gif) |
|
Fost Pod Team
![Pod Team Pod Team](images/ranks/PodTeam.gif.pagespeed.ce.8vMY7Y0SfF.gif)
![](images/avatars/locked/FOST.gif.pagespeed.ce.0DoeM2VZDm.gif)
Joined: 14 Oct 2002 Posts: 3734
![](http://www.moonpod.com/graphic/Menus/spacer.gif.pagespeed.ce.9_JoBd4aHy.gif)
|
Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 2:54 pm Post subject: Starscape 3D or 2D? |
|
|
The thread discussing updating Starscape reminded me of another conundrum we face:
One contant debate Mark and I have, is whether it would be best to continue updating starscape, or to rebuild it from scratch. If we did the latter, we often wonder - would it be best to make it 3D. Since most of the models already exist in full 3D as source art, they should be translatable to a 3D engine and retain the same look.
In the back of my mind, I'm always thinking - 3D is not necessarily better than 2D, but you'd be surpised how many people tell us they aren't interested in the game unless it was 3D. It's like a new generation of people have grown up and don't really have a mental vocabulary of 2d gaming, so dismiss it as old hat. I think this is quite sad, as the Starscape art uses pre-rendered lighting technology which is way ahead of any 3D engine, so it's likely not going to look any better.
That said, I think I could get it very close indeed, and perhaps with anti-aliasing on, and high res screen selection plus real-time lighting and shadowing, it might look more impressive when in motion. Although bang goes all those people hoping to run it on their 16 meg shared memory laptop video card.!
Really interested in other opinions on this. |
|
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
![](templates/moonpod/images/spacer.gif.pagespeed.ce.9_JoBd4aHy.gif) |
|
Magnulus
![](images/avatars/gallery/Games/Breath_Of_Fire_4_Ershin.gif.pagespeed.ce.KE3qVCvKRv.gif)
Joined: 08 Nov 2005 Posts: 556 Location: Bergen, Norway
![](http://www.moonpod.com/graphic/Menus/spacer.gif.pagespeed.ce.9_JoBd4aHy.gif)
|
Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 4:01 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I need more voting options than that. Here's my thoughts:
3D isn't NECESSARY, per se, but having the game 3D would allow people with a need for lower resolutions (or higher ones) to select a different res without scaling the ships. That sort of bothered me in Starscape, that if I lowered the res, I saw less of the action. With a 3D game, that wouldn't be an issue.
Also, you could incorporate dynamic zooming if you made it 3D, zooming in when the action was close, and zooming out if, for example, the Aegis was attacked while you were away from it.
You could also add different gameplay elements like pretty cool-looking loop dodges and stuff.
How about a layered playing field? You change to a different layer by pressing a button, and that would enable you to dodge other crafts if you need to get somewhere quick. But target-seekers would still be able to reach you, and all the other crafts would just have to move up to your level to get you. I don't know. That's stupid. Forget it. It was just an attempt at giving it three play-dimensions without killing the 2D feel of the gameplay.
In any case, I'd come over and kill you if you turned it into a fully 3D playing field with Tie-Fighter like playing. Kill you dead.
PS: Instead of killing you, I might just gripe and whine by you computer and then go out for an extra cappucino.
EDIT: In short: It'd give you more freedom in terms of development... (I think.) And it may also make it more easily moddable? I don't know. Wouldn't it also be quicker to make more units etc because you didn't have to rotate, render and save ever single unit over and over? |
|
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
![](templates/moonpod/images/spacer.gif.pagespeed.ce.9_JoBd4aHy.gif) |
|
Fost Pod Team
![Pod Team Pod Team](images/ranks/PodTeam.gif.pagespeed.ce.8vMY7Y0SfF.gif)
![](images/avatars/locked/FOST.gif.pagespeed.ce.0DoeM2VZDm.gif)
Joined: 14 Oct 2002 Posts: 3734
![](http://www.moonpod.com/graphic/Menus/spacer.gif.pagespeed.ce.9_JoBd4aHy.gif)
|
Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 9:42 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Magnulus wrote: | I need more voting options than that. |
Sorry I normally hate to pigeon-hole people's answers, but I think in this case, it really comes down to - do you want 3D or not? I know for a fact that to the average person, it would be considered better and more 'current' - sad but true. As far as I'm concerned, there's no difference, and in fact I lament the death of 2D art - I don't think 3D comes close still in many respects. Still, for Starscape to exist as a timeless product that we can work on to keep current, I keep wondering if it has to be 3D.
Magnulus wrote: | In any case, I'd come over and kill you if you turned it into a fully 3D playing field with Tie-Fighter like playing. |
Fair enough I'm obviously not talking about 3D gameplay.
Magnulus wrote: | it may also make it more easily moddable? I don't know. Wouldn't it also be quicker to make more units etc because you didn't have to rotate, render and save ever single unit over and over? |
Not really - making it more extensible is really what the rewrite part would be about, 3D doesn't have anything to do with that, and the individual lit frames are just set up via batch scripts - difficult to do, but quick once it's set up. There's always perspective - you'd gain that ![Smile](images/smiles/icon_smile.gif.pagespeed.ce.nuZG_6txEH.gif) |
|
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
![](templates/moonpod/images/spacer.gif.pagespeed.ce.9_JoBd4aHy.gif) |
|
Magnulus
![](images/avatars/gallery/Games/Breath_Of_Fire_4_Ershin.gif.pagespeed.ce.KE3qVCvKRv.gif)
Joined: 08 Nov 2005 Posts: 556 Location: Bergen, Norway
![](http://www.moonpod.com/graphic/Menus/spacer.gif.pagespeed.ce.9_JoBd4aHy.gif)
|
Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 10:47 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Well, then maybe make the 3D option sound less demanding? I'd like for any second and completely re-written iteration of Starscape to be 3D, but I'd also accept and probably love a 2D imagining, since you do it so well, you brilliant sod.
Another choice the user would have with 3D graphics would be to tilt the camera so that it's at an angle to the playing field. A useless feature, maybe, but fancy nonetheless. It could actually be used to see what's further away when you want to see past the on-screen parts. iDunno. |
|
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
![](templates/moonpod/images/spacer.gif.pagespeed.ce.9_JoBd4aHy.gif) |
|
icarus Troll
![Troll Troll](images/ranks/troll.gif.pagespeed.ce.T7l3tPXIuF.gif)
![](images/avatars/gallery/Games%202/xAdvance,P20Wars,P20Sammy.gif.pagespeed.ic.R7nYIuroBV.png)
Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Location: Olympia Washington
![](http://www.moonpod.com/graphic/Menus/spacer.gif.pagespeed.ce.9_JoBd4aHy.gif)
|
Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 11:49 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I say 3D beacuase it is more realistic. |
|
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
![](templates/moonpod/images/spacer.gif.pagespeed.ce.9_JoBd4aHy.gif) |
|
Magnulus
![](images/avatars/gallery/Games/Breath_Of_Fire_4_Ershin.gif.pagespeed.ce.KE3qVCvKRv.gif)
Joined: 08 Nov 2005 Posts: 556 Location: Bergen, Norway
![](http://www.moonpod.com/graphic/Menus/spacer.gif.pagespeed.ce.9_JoBd4aHy.gif)
|
Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 12:41 am Post subject: |
|
|
That depends entirely on the usage of it, Ica. A game with pre-rendered graphics can look much more realistic than a true 3D game, depending on the play style and the system specs you want to force people to use. Starscape is the kind of game you can make very realistic using 2D only.
Fost said:
Quote: | I think this is quite sad, as the Starscape art uses pre-rendered lighting technology which is way ahead of any 3D engine, so it's likely not going to look any better. |
Oh, man! I just thought of something... The thingies. The bombs that split up and create total bedlam. You know the ones. I can't remember their names, but those things. Imagine how cool it'd look if they moved in all dimensions, some of them coming up towards the "camera" before plummeting down on to the play field again! |
|
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
![](templates/moonpod/images/spacer.gif.pagespeed.ce.9_JoBd4aHy.gif) |
|
icarus Troll
![Troll Troll](images/ranks/troll.gif.pagespeed.ce.T7l3tPXIuF.gif)
![](images/avatars/gallery/Games%202/xAdvance,P20Wars,P20Sammy.gif.pagespeed.ic.R7nYIuroBV.png)
Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Location: Olympia Washington
![](http://www.moonpod.com/graphic/Menus/spacer.gif.pagespeed.ce.9_JoBd4aHy.gif)
|
Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 1:31 am Post subject: |
|
|
I did not mean graphics. I do not care about graphics. Real life is 3D thus 3D games are infinitely more realistic than 2D ones regardless of the graphics. |
|
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
![](templates/moonpod/images/spacer.gif.pagespeed.ce.9_JoBd4aHy.gif) |
|
Chibi
![](images/avatars/gallery/Games%203/xAAA-4.gif.pagespeed.ic.P5DFg0jsLC.png)
Joined: 01 Oct 2003 Posts: 271 Location: Denver, CO, United States
![](http://www.moonpod.com/graphic/Menus/spacer.gif.pagespeed.ce.9_JoBd4aHy.gif)
|
Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 6:40 am Post subject: It's just a game, dude... |
|
|
First of all, it's just a game.
You play Final Fantasy, right? Ever stop and look at Final Fantasy 7 through X2? Your characters look 3d rendered, yes, you're right. And the video sequences and airships are 3d rendered, it's true. But every single environment you run through, that's ALL 2d. Every screen. Every city. It's 2d. 3d characters on 2d backdrops with 2d masks and 2d collision detection screen-mapping information. I don't hear you complaining that Final Fantasy Sucks. No, you think it's the best game since... Pong, and you cried when Rachel and Aerith died. Liar, you did, you know you did!
Anyways, I'm one of those guys with a laptop that only has 2mb of videomemory, and I want options for starscape to run on LESS! (Yes, I originally bought it for my desktop, but wouldn't it be cool to see StarScape played in the cafes?)
There will always be people that want the option to have multi-parallax backgrounds with 3d explosion effects, and there will always be people that want to turn those effects off to increase performance speed. That's my opinion. If you guys at Moonpod get approached by XBox360, BY ALL MEANS, make starscape 3d. But keep it top-down, because it's just awesome that way! =D |
|
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
![](templates/moonpod/images/spacer.gif.pagespeed.ce.9_JoBd4aHy.gif) |
|
Magnulus
![](images/avatars/gallery/Games/Breath_Of_Fire_4_Ershin.gif.pagespeed.ce.KE3qVCvKRv.gif)
Joined: 08 Nov 2005 Posts: 556 Location: Bergen, Norway
![](http://www.moonpod.com/graphic/Menus/spacer.gif.pagespeed.ce.9_JoBd4aHy.gif)
|
Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 7:02 am Post subject: |
|
|
icarus wrote: | I did not mean graphics. I do not care about graphics. Real life is 3D thus 3D games are infinitely more realistic than 2D ones regardless of the graphics. |
That's complete and utter toss, if you'll excuse the rudeness. 3D is graphics! And gameplay, if the game is designed that way.
So you'd prefer a tie-fighter style gameplay for Starscape? You'd prefer freeform flight in full 3D, even if it meant that every unit on the screen was reduced to a square sprites whose only distinction is their colour? That's what you're saying right now.
Part of what makes Starscape so great is the apparent simplicity of the gameplay. It's fully 2D, and I love it. Putting it in a fully 3D environment would completely change the tone of the game, and turn it into something completely different, alienating probably half of the current user base, including me. By your quote's definition of 3D, Mr. Robot is also "just" 2D, thus not realistic enough.
So what are you doing here?
Also, I can mention quite a few 3D games that are not even close to as realistic as some 2D games. |
|
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
![](templates/moonpod/images/spacer.gif.pagespeed.ce.9_JoBd4aHy.gif) |
|
Fost Pod Team
![Pod Team Pod Team](images/ranks/PodTeam.gif.pagespeed.ce.8vMY7Y0SfF.gif)
![](images/avatars/locked/FOST.gif.pagespeed.ce.0DoeM2VZDm.gif)
Joined: 14 Oct 2002 Posts: 3734
![](http://www.moonpod.com/graphic/Menus/spacer.gif.pagespeed.ce.9_JoBd4aHy.gif)
|
Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 8:24 am Post subject: |
|
|
icarus wrote: | I did not mean graphics. I do not care about graphics. Real life is 3D thus 3D games are infinitely more realistic than 2D ones regardless of the graphics. |
Ahh, but you are starting to exhibit the other trait that seems prevalent these days, which I fully understand, but don't necessarily agree with: the pursuit of realism as a goal in itself.
I used to be obssessed with realism myself maybe ten years ago. Now that it's easier to get closer to a realistic ideal, I like it, but it's not a direction I pursue in my own art.
I would not debate that if the game was 3D, it would sell better, but I think there's a slight element of "Emperor's New Clothes" about that, in that having an extra D does not necessarily make something look superior. It's just the expectation of the current market. |
|
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
![](templates/moonpod/images/spacer.gif.pagespeed.ce.9_JoBd4aHy.gif) |
|
No.118
![](images/avatars/gallery/Starscape/xScientist.gif.pagespeed.ic.29km4d4Ywc.png)
Joined: 04 Nov 2005 Posts: 46 Location: England
![](http://www.moonpod.com/graphic/Menus/spacer.gif.pagespeed.ce.9_JoBd4aHy.gif)
|
Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 9:57 am Post subject: Re: It's just a game, dude... |
|
|
Chibi wrote: | You play Final Fantasy, right? Ever stop and look at Final Fantasy 7 through X2? Your characters look 3d rendered, yes, you're right. And the video sequences and airships are 3d rendered, it's true. But every single environment you run through, that's ALL 2d. Every screen. Every city. It's 2d. 3d characters on 2d backdrops with 2d masks and 2d collision detection screen-mapping information. I don't hear you complaining that Final Fantasy Sucks. No, you think it's the best game since... Pong, and you cried when Rachel and Aerith died. Liar, you did, you know you did! |
To be technical, from X onwards, it became true 3-D. You're still restricted to a single plane of movement of course (obviously, because the characters aren't flying) but all the graphics are rendered in full 3D, if you want proof just look at the camera moves- you can't do that in 2D.
As for Starscape... I don't care if it's rendered in 2D or 3D. Does it really make a difference? I suppose that 3D might allow you to use some different effects, but I didn't buy Starscape because it's pretty.
As for 'true 3D', then that would be a definite no. The X-Wing series was a great series, but this isn't X-Wing, this is Starscape. If you switched to 3D, it wouldn't be the same game any more.
The fun of Starscape is in the drift flying style, and I just don't think that would work in 3D. |
|
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
![](templates/moonpod/images/spacer.gif.pagespeed.ce.9_JoBd4aHy.gif) |
|
Weeble Starscape Jedi
![Starscape Jedi Starscape Jedi](images/ranks/Jedi.gif.pagespeed.ce.EhLihzmHxK.gif)
![](images/avatars/gallery/Ghiblies/xLpta_boy1.gif.pagespeed.ic.45zXTpSBMR.png)
Joined: 25 Apr 2003 Posts: 1143 Location: Glasgow, Scotland
![](http://www.moonpod.com/graphic/Menus/spacer.gif.pagespeed.ce.9_JoBd4aHy.gif)
|
Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 12:19 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Personally, I've never been terribly keen on prerendered 3D sprites. It took me a while to get used to them in Blizzard's Starcraft. I think 2D works best when you have the resources to make lots of detailed hand-drawn art, like Metal Slug, various 2D beat-em-ups (do we still actually use that term?), the bad-guys in Gish (though not the scenery - it's pretty bland). Hmmm... all those are generally cartoon-style. Maybe that's part of what I think makes a good 2D game. Anyway, I don't feel like Starscape is going to be detrimentally affected by a move to 3D graphics. That said, it seems like a big change for limited benefit. I must say, it seems strange to me that you'd consider doing this for the existing Starscape. Surely such efforts would be better spent on a full sequel? |
|
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
![](templates/moonpod/images/spacer.gif.pagespeed.ce.9_JoBd4aHy.gif) |
|
icarus Troll
![Troll Troll](images/ranks/troll.gif.pagespeed.ce.T7l3tPXIuF.gif)
![](images/avatars/gallery/Games%202/xAdvance,P20Wars,P20Sammy.gif.pagespeed.ic.R7nYIuroBV.png)
Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Location: Olympia Washington
![](http://www.moonpod.com/graphic/Menus/spacer.gif.pagespeed.ce.9_JoBd4aHy.gif)
|
Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 1:35 pm Post subject: Re: It's just a game, dude... |
|
|
Chibi wrote: |
You play Final Fantasy, right? Ever stop and look at Final Fantasy 7 through X2? Your characters look 3d rendered, yes, you're right. And the video sequences and airships are 3d rendered, it's true. But every single environment you run through, that's ALL 2d. Every screen. Every city. It's 2d. 3d characters on 2d backdrops with 2d masks and 2d collision detection screen-mapping information. I don't hear you complaining that Final Fantasy Sucks. No, you think it's the best game since... Pong, and you cried when Rachel and Aerith died. Liar, you did, you know you did! |
No.
I find console RPGs tedious and boring. I would rather play a western style CRPG. In an eastern console RPG you have to use the characters they give you and follow the story they give you. In a western style RPG like NWN or Oblivion you can create your own character and do whatever you want with them and not have to sit thro 3hr cutscenes for some ****** melodramatic story.
And I don't hate a game just cause it is 2D. I love soldat and starscape. I just wish they were 3D like Half Life or Freespace.
Last edited by icarus on Mon Jun 19, 2006 1:38 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
![](templates/moonpod/images/spacer.gif.pagespeed.ce.9_JoBd4aHy.gif) |
|
Fost Pod Team
![Pod Team Pod Team](images/ranks/PodTeam.gif.pagespeed.ce.8vMY7Y0SfF.gif)
![](images/avatars/locked/FOST.gif.pagespeed.ce.0DoeM2VZDm.gif)
Joined: 14 Oct 2002 Posts: 3734
![](http://www.moonpod.com/graphic/Menus/spacer.gif.pagespeed.ce.9_JoBd4aHy.gif)
|
Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 1:38 pm Post subject: Re: It's just a game, dude... |
|
|
No.118 wrote: | The fun of Starscape is in the drift flying style, and I just don't think that would work in 3D. |
Yeah, I should probably have stated - I'm not talking about 3D gameplay. Yeah, I'd like to make a full 3D space combat game, but that would be a different game to Starscape, and we are talking about ways to update Starscape here. |
|
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
![](templates/moonpod/images/spacer.gif.pagespeed.ce.9_JoBd4aHy.gif) |
|
icarus Troll
![Troll Troll](images/ranks/troll.gif.pagespeed.ce.T7l3tPXIuF.gif)
![](images/avatars/gallery/Games%202/xAdvance,P20Wars,P20Sammy.gif.pagespeed.ic.R7nYIuroBV.png)
Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Location: Olympia Washington
![](http://www.moonpod.com/graphic/Menus/spacer.gif.pagespeed.ce.9_JoBd4aHy.gif)
|
Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 1:41 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Oh...
Well i only care about gameplay so make starscape a 3D space sim or leave it alone. Pre rendered 3D sprites look ******.
No.118 wrote: |
The fun of Starscape is in the drift flying style, and I just don't think that would work in 3D. |
How do you drift in starscape? I always tryed to do that but the annoying Gridspace physics always got in the way. |
|
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
![](templates/moonpod/images/spacer.gif.pagespeed.ce.9_JoBd4aHy.gif) |
|
|
|
|
|
|