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Moonpod Homepage Starscape Information Mr. Robot Information Free Game Downloads Starscape Highscore Table
Mar-06: Shiny
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Weeble
Starscape Jedi
Starscape Jedi


Joined: 25 Apr 2003
Posts: 1143
Location: Glasgow, Scotland



PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's arguable what constitutes a 1d game in many of the same ways as what consitutes a 3d game. Is War Angels a 3d game just because it uses 3d graphics? It's still played in a 2d plane, and like all 3d computer games, projected onto a 2d screen. If you just consider the playing space, and not its visual representation, I would say that Vib Ribbon is truly a 1d game.
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Magnulus



Joined: 08 Nov 2005
Posts: 556
Location: Bergen, Norway



PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wouldn't call Vib Ribbon a TRULY 1D game in any respect. You do have to take into account jumping hurdles and the likes, even if they are all presented in a straight line and you don't actually JUMP, per se, you just traverse them. I could call it SORTA a 1D game in the loosest respect, but never truly 1D.

It IS a bloody great game, though.
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icarus
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Joined: 01 Mar 2004

Location: Olympia Washington



PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 8:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

technically wolfenstein3d and doom1 are 2d games
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Magnulus



Joined: 08 Nov 2005
Posts: 556
Location: Bergen, Norway



PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 11:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That depends entirely on how you define a 2D game. And, no. Doom isn't in any case, since you move up and down in it. Wolfenstein 3D, I can see, but this is all kind of a silly discussion and is REALLY digressing from the actual topic. Shouldn't it be split away just to keep the thread a tad clean?
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icarus
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Joined: 01 Mar 2004

Location: Olympia Washington



PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 12:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

actually in doom you aren't moving up or down

the level is created in 2D and than a hight layer is added over it

in doom nothing can exist on top of anything and if you shoot at an monster at a higher altitude than you the bullets will still hit because there is no hight in doom
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Magnulus



Joined: 08 Nov 2005
Posts: 556
Location: Bergen, Norway



PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 7:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm well aware of the game mechanics of the game I played all through most of my late childhood. I know you can't be on top of something. But things move up and down, platforms, stairs, whatever. It DOES use all three dimensions, albeit to a limited extent. Take into consideration that if something is right in front of you. In Doom, it could also be high above you, which means you don't see it, which means the gameplay mechanics are 3D.
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Konedima
Grammar Police
Grammar Police


Joined: 25 Oct 2003
Posts: 1068
Location: Sydney, Land of Censorship



PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 8:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The graphics of a 1d game do not have to be 1d, I am talking about the gameplay. Starscape uses 3d graphics, but is it a 3d game? No....
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Magnulus



Joined: 08 Nov 2005
Posts: 556
Location: Bergen, Norway



PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 11:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's hardly a good comparison as the graphics that WE see are pre-rendered two-dimensional sprites. There's nothing 3D about Starscape, unless you add the time-dimension. I am prepared to agree that you can call a game 1D if everything happens on a straight line with no jumping, dodging or other such things. But it still wouldn't be 1D in a true fashion as long as the characters have any kind of height, meaning they'd have to be zero pixels tall (or wide) to make it purely 1D.

Can we please just end this discussion and agree to disagree? It's probably the longest, most trivial discussion I've EVER participated in. And I mean EVER! Have a final word, if you want to, I won't contest it. My participation ends here. From here on in, I'm only open for discussing the actual topic of the thread. (until some other trivial and silly discussion arises, of course. Razz)
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Lothar
Starscape Jedi
Starscape Jedi


Joined: 21 Dec 2003
Posts: 522



PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you're judging a game by the dimensions the graphics are rendered in, ANY computer game is 2D, because the monitor is a flat surface (or an equivalent manifold, if you want to get really technical.) If the graphics show up on a computer monitor, they've been rendered in 2D by the graphics card.

I think the right way to conceive of games is by looking at how many spatial dimensions the game dynamics are conceptually embedded in. (All games have a time component, but we ignore that in counting dimension most of the time.) In that case, Starscape is 2D -- all of the gameplay takes place in a nice, flat 2D area. Wolfenstein (original) is also 2D, since the area is functionally flat (though it's projected as a 3D space). DooM (original) is 3D, though -- vertical displacement actually matters for some things. You can fall, but not fly back up certain areas; you can shoot rockets into the floor or into a ledge; you spend a great deal of time jumping across chasms from platform to platform. While the game doesn't allow for monsters, rooms, or you to occupy the same vertical space as each other, the vertical space still does count for some purposes. And a number of DooM mods fix this without otherwise significantly altering the gameplay. (I spent like 3 hours yesterday playing through a dozen levels of DooMII. No, I can't beat it on nightmare. But trust me, I know the game well enough to make this observation.) You couldn't reduce DooM into 2D without losing key gameplay elements, while you COULD reduce the original Wolf3D into 2D and only change the graphics.

Now, if you think DooM isn't 3D enough, there's always Descent and its derivatives. Descent is normally 3D, but if you're clever with the level editor, you can "stack" 3D rooms in the same space, making the game into 4D or more. The ever-popular "Halls of Iconia" is based on this exact trick -- it has two rooms shaped almost the same and occupying the same 3D space, but if you're in one of them you can't see someone in the other and vice versa. You have to travel through a hallway from one to the other even though they're in the same space. No matter how hard you try, you can't reduce the level to 3D.
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Magnulus



Joined: 08 Nov 2005
Posts: 556
Location: Bergen, Norway



PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That sounds surely freaky, Lothar. The 4D Descent business, that is.
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icarus
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Joined: 01 Mar 2004

Location: Olympia Washington



PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i gota try that

does anyone know whare i can get a coppy (not piracy beacuse it is now open sorce)
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Fost
Pod Team
Pod Team


Joined: 14 Oct 2002
Posts: 3734



PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Flumpaphone wrote:
I note that you are using HLSL and I wondered if you thought that the time has come for independent game developers to embrace pixel and vertex shaders?

We aren't using anything particularly earth shattering with regards to vertex shaders - we actually just use it to do our lighting, texture scrolling, a bit of vertex wobble in the water, and some special shaders that camera map a texture to make it look like it's in the distance. All these shaders emulate well in software - we've already tested this on old intel graphics cards.

We will be using pixel/vertex shaders a lot more on our next project, but you can write shaders in a way where they will fall back to another technique if the card doesn't support it. We will of course do everything to ensure our games run on older hardware - a lot more so than mainstream releases anyway.

As for whether it's time for indie developers to embrace this technology, I think our types of games can get away with a lot more than the 'casual'* games developers can with their games.

Flumpaphone wrote:
And also, would cg not have been a better choice to keep the option of cross-platform development open?

In Mr. Robot's case, the game is tied into a DX9 renderer, and so HLSL was the way to go. In the future, I'm still deciding what to do - CG seems like the obvious choice for multi-platform, but oddly enough, I don't hear a lot of people talking about using it. The main site for it also doesn't seem to have been updated in a long time, and (as far as I know) there's no support for shader model 3 yet. So I'm not sure if just going the HLSL route and then assuming you need to recode shader into GLSL if you go multi-platform is the better way.

I'm wary of going the GL only route, because a lot of developers have told us GL apps have a much higher fail on run rate on windows then dx apps. Probably because gl drivers are not updated as much, and there's some issues with GL on certain service packs of windows.

Note, I'm not an expert, and I'm still researching this, so if anyone has any thoughts, I would really be interested in what you have to say.






*People are starting to categorise small games developers who sell online into 'casual' and 'indie'. Casual games generally being the match3 crowd who sell through portals, and 'indie' games being the slightly deeper type of game that we and many others develop and sell off our own site. I think that's a good general classification.
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Lothar
Starscape Jedi
Starscape Jedi


Joined: 21 Dec 2003
Posts: 522



PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2006 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

icarus wrote:
i gota try that

does anyone know whare i can get a coppy (not piracy beacuse it is now open sorce)


That's a misconception.

The source code has been publicly released, but you still have to buy a license for the game if you want to play it. Just because it's open source doesn't mean it's free to play.

Unfortunately, I have no idea where to actually buy the game. I've had my copy since like '96...
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icarus
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Joined: 01 Mar 2004

Location: Olympia Washington



PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2006 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

that is because they couldn't release all the code (some of it belongs to other people)

however some people are making versines of the game wich replace these parts

and this is what i am looking for

(by nature it is impossible to charge for open source software)
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jollyreaper



Joined: 20 Jun 2003
Posts: 181



PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2006 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fost wrote:
01d55 wrote:
It seems, on superficial examination, to be Escape Velocity in 3d.

Sort of - EV Nova is Elite in 2D.

If you think that's hard, try navigating round the solar system in frontier Smile


I want to see a game that uses an Independence War engine and simulation to do a massive space game. Smile
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