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Thought for the day: Buying used is just as bad as piracy.
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icarus
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Joined: 01 Mar 2004

Location: Olympia Washington



PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 3:48 pm    Post subject: Thought for the day: Buying used is just as bad as piracy. Reply with quote

When you buy a used game you are doing nothing to support the developers.

What is your opinion on reselling games?
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Fost
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As far as I know XBLA allows no resell rights, I suspect that will affect things in the future if the other console services don't allow resell.

It's an odd one, because the shops earn most of their money from resell, but to try and stop it has issues with the law in most countries.

...and yet, game prices haven't risen as much as development costs or inflation. Something has to give somewhere.
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Poo Bear
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gamestop is patting itself on the back for making record profits:

http://sports.joystiq.com/2007/03/27/gamestop-sales-hit-5-3-billion-in-2006/

A big chunk of which come from second hand sales allegedly. Some are claiming the chain specifically under-stocks new games to help customers focus on second hand stock.

I like the penny-arcade take on this:
http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2007/03/30
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icarus
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Joined: 01 Mar 2004

Location: Olympia Washington



PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 7:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That was the angle I was coming from.

Anyways I found an article (can find a link) saying that sony might make reselling PS3 games a violation of the EULA. A slap in the face of gamestop and other "video game pawn shops". I would actually thank them if they did this as it would force stores to *GASP* actually stock new games! *GASP*
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Sergenth



Joined: 01 Jan 2006
Posts: 54



PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 2:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ever since stores started selling used for $5 less than new, I've only bought one or two games used. It's a quality issue for me... not about supporting the developer.

Similar Argument: Renting games deprives developers of additional revenue.

Uncovered Argument: Will economic conditions force developers to lease games to their customers? Oh wait... World of Warcraft does that already. Razz




I think we'll continue to see all developers choose the distribution model that meets with success for them and they will also continue to experiment with different models. All in all, a "good" game that is advertised well at an acceptable price will continue to garner fat profits.
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Konedima
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 11:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I generally try to avoid buying used games unless I can't find them new (which happens more frequently than I'd like, I have some estoric tastes).

I help with the problem by not trading in games. To be honest, it's not because I object to the whole situation (I do, but that's not why) - the reason I don't trade in games is that they pay absolutely nothing for them. I don't think it's worth it losing one of my games forever so I can get 5-10 bucks off a new game.

I'm not saying that new games aren't ridiculously overpriced too (especially here down under) but at least some amount (small as it may be) goes to the developer.
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Fost
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sergenth wrote:
Uncovered Argument: Will economic conditions force developers to lease games to their customers? Oh wait... World of Warcraft does that already.


Lots of big developers (Id, Epic ) have said at GDC that they are looking more and more at consoles due to the PC piracy problem. Many PC developers are seeing MMO dev as the future for PC for the same reason. Nothing too bad about that, but it's a shame for the single player PC game fan.
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Sorrow



Joined: 16 Jan 2004
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Location: Australia



PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is Piracy really that much of a problem?

At the end of the day would these people who do end up getting it illegally buy it if they had too?

I love my single player PC games Sad i would be terrified too see them go, in some ways i think the RTS model works quite well:

Single player campaign.
Skirmish mode.
Challenging online play that requires a unique CD key which doesn't even need to be that heavily enforced.

Kind of forces all the real players to have bought a copy at least, and well look at Starcraft Smile

Edit:

oops forgot the original context.

It dose seem a bit bad the way these stores resell, my mate recently got an Xbox 360 and "Dead Rising" the game was second hand but was only $10-15 cheaper then the new one, he also traded in around 27 games to the average value of ~$10 each (AUD) .

Now i've always been the kind of person who doesn't just insist on a new copy but will buy a collectors edition if there is one, i love all that Gimmicky stuff Very Happy
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Fost
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorrow wrote:
Is Piracy really that much of a problem?

I don't really want to start that debate, but whether we are right or wrong, most developers think it is, and so whether you agree or not, it's definitely something which is affecting the decisions taken about development.

There's been several cases of indies in fact releasing data about this:
http://forums.indiegamer.com/showpost.php?p=124351&postcount=57

and some private discussion about it that leads us to the same conclusion, but all that aside, we are obviously nobody when compared to the likes of Id or Epic, and if they are basing their decisions on figures of piracy, then something must be up.
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Tennants Lager



Joined: 07 Feb 2007
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Location: Paisley, Scotland



PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the last game I traded in was SmackDown 2 (KYR?) on the PS1 for JBI on the PS2 after I bought the new console way back in the day as a part-ex.

Boy did I ever regret that move...... Mad

Have bought a few used/preowned games, though it was mostly back in the latter days of the SNES, getting cheap copies of Super Probotector and so on. Never have for the PC.

Best game I ever bought used? FF7, hands down. Got it years after it was released and hard to find new anywhere (I was late in getting a PS1 after being a Nintendo player since the start of my gaming life).

Indeed, that's really the only time I'd go to the used market - when I want an older game that is bloody hard/impossible to find new.
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Lucretia



Joined: 29 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

icarus wrote:
That was the angle I was coming from.

Anyways I found an article (can find a link) saying that sony might make reselling PS3 games a violation of the EULA. A slap in the face of gamestop and other "video game pawn shops". I would actually thank them if they did this as it would force stores to *GASP* actually stock new games! *GASP*


The thing is, the game developer has already been paid for the game. But there is also something else, the government charge VAT on all items, new or second/third/fourth hand now, so this is why the markup on resold games are so much higher now.

N.B. the government used to not charge VAT on 2nd hand stuff, they bought this in around 1995, I think.

Luke.
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Weeble
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is it just me or is that really confusing? VAT stands for Value Added Tax. But a second hand game has no added value. Value has been removed! Does that mean you can claim back the VAT you paid on any games you've sold second-hand?

And how does it work for cars and stuff?
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SethP



Joined: 24 Apr 2006
Posts: 303
Location: Connecticut, USA



PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 2:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah... taxing the added value on items with no added value seems a little... off.

I guess it's pretty clever, though, if they want to jack up estimates of how much the economy grew... "Well, GDP only rose 5%, but we collected 10% more taxes, so that means we must be doing something right!"
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 10:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is it wrong to sell a used car? Is it wrong to sell used clothes? (Goodwill/Salvation Army) Or perhaps used toys other than video games?

Not at all. The video games/other items have already been paid for. Buying an item is a legal transfer of ownership, once you buy it it's yours. As you own the item it is up to you who gets to use it and how, and should you decide to sell it, that's your right. Some things require a license to sell, but it is still your right to sell even those things if you own them.

Piracy on the other hand is an illegal transfer of ownership, even if the one hosting it has already paid for it. He owns the item but not the copyright. If you own the copyright to something then you can host it online for download all you want.

The difference here is the transfer of an actual item vs. copying said item and selling the copy. Selling the copy is illegal and wrong if you do not own the copyright or if it is done without express permission from the one (person or company) who does own the copyright.

Resale is perfectly fine, Piracy is definitively not.
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siiseli



Joined: 17 Feb 2007
Posts: 13
Location: finland



PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 5:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unclever title wrote:
Is it wrong to sell a used car? Is it wrong to sell used clothes? (Goodwill/Salvation Army) Or perhaps used toys other than video games?

Not at all. The video games/other items have already been paid for. Buying an item is a legal transfer of ownership, once you buy it it's yours. As you own the item it is up to you who gets to use it and how, and should you decide to sell it, that's your right. Some things require a license to sell, but it is still your right to sell even those things if you own them.

Piracy on the other hand is an illegal transfer of ownership, even if the one hosting it has already paid for it. He owns the item but not the copyright. If you own the copyright to something then you can host it online for download all you want.

The difference here is the transfer of an actual item vs. copying said item and selling the copy. Selling the copy is illegal and wrong if you do not own the copyright or if it is done without express permission from the one (person or company) who does own the copyright.

Resale is perfectly fine, Piracy is definitively not.

amen to that.
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