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Domo Arigato, Mr. Roboto!
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Weeble
Starscape Jedi
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Joined: 25 Apr 2003
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Location: Glasgow, Scotland



PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2004 12:56 pm    Post subject: Domo Arigato, Mr. Roboto! Reply with quote

Looks promising. I suspect this game might be more my kind of thing than Battlescape, although I'm looking forward to both.

It's still hard to tell exactly what this game involves. A robot and lots of crates, at a minimum, I suppose. You mention collecting crew keycards - I'd show caution there. I think that's one of the reasons I don't like the Resident Evil series - what's that, this door's locked? I need the copper mongoose key? Where on Earth do I find one of them? Oh, inside the haunted grandfather clock that bleeds when it chimes. How logical.

Does Mr. Robot push and/or pick up crates? Can he jump or climb? Is there a puzzle element? (Anybody played the SNES RPG Lufia II? It has some amazing block-based puzzles.) Is it dexterity based? (Dodging traps, leaping between moving platforms, etc...) Can we expect plenty of secret stuff? Does anybody feel brave enough to answer these questions at this time?

Weeble.
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Fost
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2004 1:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Domo Arigato, Mr. Roboto! Reply with quote

Weeble wrote:
Does anybody feel brave enough to answer these questions at this time?

Not really! but I'll have a go, if you'll take what I say with a pinch of salt. The reason being: with this type of game you can come up with the best room designs the more finished it becomes. Rooms that look good on paper might end up not working or just being plain boring. It's best when you have all the parts working and you can just sit down with the editor and play Bob the Builder until you come up with something fun.

That said, I'll have a go at answering the questions based on what out current intentions are:
Weeble wrote:
You mention collecting crew keycards - I'd show caution there. I think that's one of the reasons I don't like the Resident Evil series

This is more to do with our intended game structure - you need the security keys from each of the crew members so you can deactivate HELs mindcore. Although we do want to have locked doors/keys, we are fully aware of how that can turn a good game bad. Poo Bear in particular has erred on the side of caution here (I'd be quite happy putting keys in visible but hard to reach places as a form of mental torture Twisted Evil )
Weeble wrote:
Does Mr. Robot push and/or pick up crates? Can he jump or climb? Is there a puzzle element? (Anybody played the SNES RPG Lufia II? It has some amazing block-based puzzles.)

Mr Robot (I'm currently calling him Asimov - which may/may not stick) can push crates, and jump. 'Push only', does allow for there to be quite complex block movement puzzles. We've already worked some out that could stump people for days but are unlikely to use them - we really don't want Mr. Robot to be another Sokoban clone - it's just a coincidence that you can build that type of level as well.
Weeble wrote:
Is it dexterity based? (Dodging traps, leaping between moving platforms, etc...)

Yes, this is more what we want to aim at but with some puzzles thrown in for good measure. It's an action puzzler Very Happy although we are hoping it will lean more in the action direction.
Weeble wrote:
Can we expect plenty of secret stuff?

Hmm, I'd like to say yes, but I'm just not sure. A 'pick up the stars' bonus system has been discussed, which could be cool, because we could place the 'stars' in hard to reach places, irrelevant to the main game. I'd like that, we'll have to see how well the level building phase goes though.

Really it will just come down to seeing what's fun when we can drop most of the game objects into the editor and play though a room. That might sound like an odd way to go about things to most people. We do have more rooms than we need fully designed on paper, but I think we'll get more mileage out of rooms we come up with on the fly.
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icarus
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Joined: 01 Mar 2004

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2004 7:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Domo Arigato, Mr. Roboto! Reply with quote

Fost wrote:
It's an action puzzler Very Happy although we are hoping it will lean more in the action direction.

so can you blow things up or will this be an "avoid the enamys or trap them whith crates" game

Quote:
Mr Robot (I'm currently calling him Asimov - which may/may not stick) can push crates, and jump. 'Push only', does allow for there to be quite complex block movement puzzles

why not pull crates



also is HEL intentanlay named after the norse godes of death?
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2004 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My 2 copper on the subject is dont make any of the puzzles tedious ( i do like challenges ), i however hate having to do the same thing multiple times to solve a puzzle. (or going back through every puzzle ive solved to get to the newest part)

Frustration is bad, so any super hard puzzles should probably be optional(improve your puzzling rank or something)

Action is good(again, as long as its fun...not that you guys would make any other kind), as is secrets. Maybe a malfunctioning robot can give a secret hint in icarus speak Cool.
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Fost
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2004 8:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Domo Arigato, Mr. Roboto! Reply with quote

icarus wrote:
so can you blow things up or will this be an "avoid the enamys or trap them whith crates" game

I can't really say - whatever we find the most fun, although we are thinking avoid/trap enemies will be the best direction to take, and that's where we will try first. As I mentioned, the capability is there to do anything - we just need to try things out. We are right now in the process of creating sets of rules for the 'world' and objects with various characteristics. Once we have the 'toyset' we can then work out what is the most fun, and what if anything we need to add to make things even better.[/quote]
icarus wrote:
why not pull crates?

Pull means you can rearrange things how you like and destroys the beauty of Sokoban style puzzling and also it's one less key you need. Although as I mentioned, I'd like to play that down because it's not really the goal of the game. (Check out any sokoban clone to see what I mean - there's loads, most of the Zelda games even use it in places)
icarus wrote:
also is HEL intentanlay named after the norse godes of death?

No.
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Weeble
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 06, 2004 12:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

On the subject of keys and locked doors, my primary concern is with a certain common implementation used to make a linear game appear not to be linear. You come across a locked door at some point, but you get little or no clue as to a) why it's locked, b) where the key might be or c) what is behind the door. Then after being funnelled in the right direction for a while longer, you find the key right out of the blue.

It's very important for any non-linear game to allow the player to build up a mental model of the things he needs to achieve and how they are interdependent. You don't need to (and you probably don't want to) let him know absolutely everything ahead of time, but if you let him know nothing in advance then he'll never feel like he's got any control over the game, merely that he's wandering at random in the dark.

Of course, I couldn't say whether Mr. Robot is in any way non-linear, and so this advice may or may not have relevance. Is it just a case of complete room 1, complete room 2, complete room 3? Or will you explore from room to room, branching out, backtracking and finding different connections? If the latter, do rooms reset when you leave them? Again, these might not be issues yet decided.
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Poo Bear
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 06, 2004 10:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't focus too much on keys, currently the only reason for their existence is to partition the ship into discrete zones. They aren't really part of any puzzle (yet). Just having one room followed by another is a bit boring so instead a number of rooms are grouped into a themed mapped zone. Completing the game requires you to have completed all the zones in any order and the keys act as proof you have finished a zone.

I don't have the mentality or stamina for things like:

a) complex puzzles that take ages to solve
b) super dextrous platform sections over pits of instant death requiring 10 retries.
c) illogical puzzles requiring searching for seemingly random items in bizarre locations.
d) cheap game extension devices like "hey lets do the whole thing again backwards" (cough Halo cough).

so don't worry... Wink
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Johnh



Joined: 06 Sep 2003
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 07, 2004 3:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

*possible spoiler warning for Halo*


I actually liked the idea of returning to the Pillar of Autumn/Truth and Reconciliation (you did return to the Truth and Reconciliation to find out Captain Keyes got infected, right?). One of my biggest gripes about an RPG/FPS is that , due to linear design, you go from one town, to the next, and once you leave a town, you never come back. It's almost as if the entire object has disappeared. In Halo, returning to the Pillar of Autumn/Truth and Reconciliation reminded me that those two vessels still exist, and are important to the plot.

Or you could be talking about the various levels where your mission is to go from point A to point B, and then back to point A (except with more enemies). THOSE were annoying, but to me, realistic. It's just as hard, if not harder, to escape from the enemy base you just infiltrated.
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Fost
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2004 5:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Halo has to be the king of stringing out a game, and yet I fully understand why they did it - reviewers would complain in their droves if there was only ten hours of gameplay. Yet it would have been a better game if it had culled all those repeated corridor sections where you fight the flood, and the section with zig zagging corridors where you fight the ... ...other guys whos names I've forgotten... Very Happy
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BluePhoenix



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2004 8:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Domo Arigato, Mr. Roboto! Reply with quote

Weeble wrote:
Anybody played the SNES RPG Lufia II? It has some amazing block-based puzzles.


Own and love the game. My only complaint is that once you've done the puzzles once, that's it, no more challenge except for monsters. It would be cool if you guys could work in a "puzzle randomizer" into it that made the puzzles different each game you played. (not each time you died of course)
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Fost
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 8:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As mentioned in other places - this isn't really a puzzle game, so randomly generating rooms would be impossible - or at least, it would be extremely difficult to make one that was any fun!

I wonder how hard it would be to make a random sokoban level creator as an addon? I suspect that would be pretty hard too, but it's an interesting, self contained programming problem. It really wouldn't reflect the rest of the game though, so I think a comprehensive level editor would be the best way to extend game life - and whether we have that depends on other factors. I'm at least hoping I'll be able to come up with some additional levels after release without having to involve the programmers.
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Gravitron



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PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2004 11:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If the game is rich enough in content, diverse enough and just very entertaining, I see no reason why it wouldn't last many long hours.
Repetitiveness is a tear done though, and I would prefer a game to end fast if it didn't had much to offer beyond its intitial start, as long as at least that part was done right.


(domo arigato) "Mr. Roboto"...Nice weeble, been listening to the Styx as of late?
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HunterXI



Joined: 26 Dec 2003
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 26, 2004 1:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fost wrote:
Yet it would have been a better game if it had culled all those repeated corridor sections where you fight the flood, and the section with zig zagging corridors where you fight the ... ...other guys whos names I've forgotten... Very Happy


Grunts?
Jackels?
Hunters?
Elites?

Oh, Sentinels?
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Fost
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 26, 2004 5:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Covenant! Sorry - I had to play the original Halo late at night after my wife had gone to bed. Generally, if I had the volume too loud she would come downstairs and punch me; so I missed a lot of what was said!
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Jake89



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 28, 2004 1:36 am    Post subject: oooh! Reply with quote

Dern! I was hoping that battlescape would be done soon... I guess not. Just for putting off battlescape, the first thing I'm going to do when I download Mr. Robot is make a ridiculusly hard level and (if possible to share them) upload it somewhere to taunt you all! Twisted Evil Anyway, I guess a puzzler would be fun. Contrary to the general opinion of everyone else (which is: Yay! ACTION!) I actually am more excited about the puzzle part of the game. Sure action puts in thrilling points, but a trully twistedly-engenious puzzle can entertain me for DAYS. Very Happy Even though I said this earlyer in the post, I would like to stress that the ability to share custom puzzles with other users would be very entertaining.
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