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Starscape 3D or 2D?
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Poll Result
  How many Ds do you want?  
 
2 is enough
74%
 74%  [ 23 ]
Gimme 3 or nothing!
25%
 25%  [ 8 ]
 
  Total Votes : 31  

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Fost
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Pod Team


Joined: 14 Oct 2002
Posts: 3734



PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Weeble wrote:
I must say, it seems strange to me that you'd consider doing this for the existing Starscape. Surely such efforts would be better spent on a full sequel?

Something we are considering, is the ideas of having several, timeless games which are updated constantly. Mr. Robot is a game that this can apply to, and our next game will be even more so, but Starscape suffers due to structure of its back end. Wouldn't it be great if Starscape was this experience that continually improved in much greater bounds than it has in the past? If new campaigns could be added and so on. It's just difficult to decide how to do it - keep plugging away at the existing codebase and get there slower, or suffer the delat of rewriting from scratch but then be able to take far greater leaps. If we rewrite, then the option of 3D (for display, not gameplay) rears its head. We know it would improve sales, because we know a large proportion of people won't buy without a game being 3D. There's also the advantage of unifying the engine with what we will be using on game 3, so hardware compatibility, and use of new shader technology become a "write once, use on all games" affair. So, it is appealing, just a bit of a dilemma.

Yeah, the best way is to make it a sequel, which inevitably kills your last product, but existing Starscape fans hopefully buy it. You still end up with one product though. I also really love the pure concept behind Starscape - of going into the warp unarmed. You'd think any sequel would start with a heavily armed return to the warp, and yet I think you could innovate in amazing ways with a remake. The best thing to do, would be remake the game AND old customers have to buy it again. Of course, that would annoy people - yet funnily enough, that's all you are really doing with a sequel. Hey, it worked for Strange Adventure in infinite space Smile
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Lothar
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Joined: 21 Dec 2003
Posts: 522



PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 8:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are you talking about making it 3D in the same sense that, say, War3 or Dungeon Siege are 3D? Meaning, essentially, all the action still happens in a 2D way and you can only move 2D, but everything is rendered 3D?

If so, here are a couple thoughts:

1) 3D games with fixed camera angles aren't 3D in any meaningful sense. Everything has been pre-rendered down to 2D sprites, and they'll always show up the same because they're being viewed from the same angle. In this case, you've basically got what you have now, so why change it?

2) allowing player-controlled camera angles introduces a whole new set of controls -- how do you zoom in and out? How do you make the angle steeper or shallower? How do you get the action you WANT on the screen? Will controlling the camera distract the player from playing the game?

3) NOT allowing the player to control the camera angle -- having it computer-controlled somehow -- is hella annoying. I hate when I'm moving around in DS2 and the computer decides the camera just HAS to be at some angle other than the one I had it at, so I get a sudden extreme closeup of my party when what I want is a far-off view so I can see everything. But, I can't have that angle because there's a wall there, and the computer just isn't smart enough to not render it, but it's smart enough to zoom past it. UGH.

I love Starscape, in large part, for its simplicity. I use a grand total of 8 keys all game. If you introduce a camera I can move, suddenly I'm using 14 keys (6 new ones are: zoom in/out, turn left/right, pitch up/down) and if you make the computer control it I have to deal with the complication of figuring out how the computer makes its choices so I can change my game style to make the camera behave for me. Neither one of these sounds like a good move. I'll stick with 2D, thanks very much.
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Magnulus



Joined: 08 Nov 2005
Posts: 556
Location: Bergen, Norway



PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 10:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

icarus wrote:
Oh...
Well i only care about gameplay so make starscape a 3D space sim or leave it alone. Pre rendered 3D sprites look ******.

So Starscape looks like whatever it was that was censored? Can't be a positive word. Where are you going with this?

I agree to some extent with Lothar, I really do. However, if you made it again and could simply use an already existing 3D engine you'd used for your third game, then I see little negative about it, especially if it could boost sales. I think Lothar's over-dramatising a bit, to be honest.

I wouldn't mind paying a few moneys for an expansion to Starscape with all-new campaigns, etc. Heck, I'd gladly pay fully for a completely new Starscape game, and then I'd still pay for the expansions. That's not something I'm just saying, either.

EDIT: Oh, and I bought Starscape partly because I was pretty. Well-done graphics are still important, even if they're not terribly advanced. If Starscape had been one of those MS Paint jobs by a lone programmer with no skills or interest in art, I wouldn't have bought it. Games are a visual medium, and I disagree that gameplay is ALL that matters. In order for me to ENJOY the gameplay, the graphics don't need to be advanced, but what there IS of graphics needs to be well done.
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Fost
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Joined: 14 Oct 2002
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 10:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lothar wrote:
3D games with fixed camera angles aren't 3D in any meaningful sense.

I completely agree, although you could say the same thing about Mr. Robot, which has fixed camera like old isometric games (although it's still in perspective. It's completely irrational, but I know for certain that many people dismiss games simply because they aren't 3D. I'm pretty much with you on everything you say there. Hard to make my mind up about this. I might convert a few of the models as an experiment some time and see what it looks like.

I certainly would not want to mess with the camera - we are talking 3D with 2D gameplay. Anyone played Armada on Dreamcast? That's the same setup - although I think they may have tilted the camera back slightly.
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Lothar
Starscape Jedi
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Joined: 21 Dec 2003
Posts: 522



PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 11:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Magnulus wrote:
I think Lothar's over-dramatising a bit


We call it "ranting", thanks very much. I've played about 90 hours of DS2 over the last 3 weeks, which led to a good long rant about annoying camera angles.
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icarus
Troll
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Joined: 01 Mar 2004

Location: Olympia Washington



PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 12:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Magnulus wrote:
icarus wrote:
Oh...
Well i only care about gameplay so make starscape a 3D space sim or leave it alone. Pre rendered 3D sprites look ******.

So Starscape looks like whatever it was that was censored? Can't be a positive word.


It was a adjective involving feces.
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MrPete



Joined: 21 Jun 2006
Posts: 6



PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 10:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ever played baldurs gate 2?

Try rendering that realtime.

2d sprites allow you to have 500 one million polyon ships blasting around an firing at once.

The most starscape would gain is lighting, which you're really gonna see when being swarmed by fighters.

I think it'd be better to create new and more varied content (beam enemies? missile enemys [not big rocket things]? stealth enemies?) rather than building a new engine to do a possibly inferior job.

The game runs well for me, even with music on in the background, even with shedloads of enemies ingame. This is good.

Pre-rendered 3d sprites look as good as you make em, and these look good.

In my humble opinion of course.
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Magnulus



Joined: 08 Nov 2005
Posts: 556
Location: Bergen, Norway



PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 6:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, part of the allure of 3D graphics is that you have full fluidity of movement, which is something you just don't get in pre-rendered graphics without spending several hundred megabytes on different viewpoints, etc. of each and every character and item.
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Rup



Joined: 19 May 2003
Posts: 363
Location: London, UK



PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

and there's subtle effects you can add such as rocking a ship slightly when it gets hit or washing particle effects across models more convincingly. Asteroids can roll around in full 3D and destroyed ships could twist a bit as they blow up. You'd get all of this effectively for free. And it should also make the game smaller which could be important e.g. in the 360 Live Arcade port Smile

I'd rather not see proper 3D lighting though without a decent level of ambient light (to keep things simple and easy to play) unless e.g. you want to make a gameplay mechanic out of ships hiding in the shadows of asteroids. I also think you'd have trouble making the worms and some of the boss effects (e.g. the cutting disc trails) look as good in 3D rather than just 2D. And the characters and the in-Aegis screens are cartoonish which might not fit as well with real 3D graphics.

I'm sure you guys could pull this off if you wanted to but I don't see a compelling reason to change.
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DogBoy
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Joined: 13 Mar 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 10:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Definitely 2D. It just looks nicer.
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Fost
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Check out reviews of Loco Roco to see what I am talking about.

I will state now that ANYONE who gives that game less 10 for its graphics is AN IDIOT.

The reviews drive me nuts - "well, it's only 2D, so you might not really like it."

IDIOT! do you think you've been short changed because you are missing a D? Perhaps the Mona Lisa isn't really that satisfying because it isn't in IMAX 3D? you MORON!

Loco Roco, for the platform, the style of game, and the style of graphics they have chosen, IS PERFECT.

No arguments - I can prove it using a calculator.



..sorry, lost it a bit there Embarassed
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Chibi



Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Posts: 271
Location: Denver, CO, United States



PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You tell 'em Fosteyboy!

Everybody else, GO CHECK IT OUT!
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Doom III



Joined: 20 Apr 2004
Posts: 117



PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 11:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

evryone is right and everyone is wrong


anyone play the airstrike series Question

worst___game____EVER!

but the review i read thought it was the best thing hed seen

i mean did they play ANY shootemp before they played that that THING


people want no people expect no people DEMAND 3D wether its good for them or not

we all know the world is messed up
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LT. JamesWolf



Joined: 26 Jun 2006
Posts: 5
Location: Current: UNS Chamberlain



PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmm, 3-D does allow for much greater manueverability, In 2-D you can't hug the deck of an enemy ship at full speed or pull fancy manuevers. Of course I'm just speakig from the POV of an adrenaline junky who wats a new playground to do his suicidal piloting in.
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Fost
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LT. JamesWolf wrote:
Hmm, 3-D does allow for much greater manueverability, In 2-D you can't hug the deck of an enemy ship at full speed or pull fancy manuevers.


You're mixing up 3D gameplay with 3D visuals there Smile

The game models would be 3D, but the game would still essentially operate in 2D.

I should have been clearer in the original post!
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